Talk:Khopesh
From khopesh to scimitar Not a bad page... I do have a question about the info from Netheril: Empire of Magic... the source does not say the khopesh becomes the scimitar... any thoughts? Darkwynters (talk) 03:31, November 5, 2012 (UTC) :Historically, in the real world, the scimitar descended from the khopesh. In pp. 31 the dates are so similar as to be more than mere coincidence; besides some lock quality items, the khopesh is the only piece of equipment to have an "expiration date" where it ceases to be used; the date is 168 years after the introduction of the scimitar; consistent with the decline of use of a primary military arm. Note that the Netherese steel longsword was introduced 192 years before the introduction of the scimitar, meaning that the khopesh and the vastly superior longsword existed side-by-side for nearly 350 years. A reasonable, though speculative, timeline would have the khopesh as a primary arm in the military when Netherese longswords are introduced, used mainly by nobles, adventurers and officers, since the military tends to be a bit hide-bound with its customs, but the introduction of the longsword prompts the evolution of the khopesh into a more modern form, which after 192 years of slow evolution, results in the introduction of the scimitar, which takes the place of the khopesh in line formations, relegating the khopesh to ceremonial and elite bodyguard duties. Eventually, even these uses decline, resulting in the abandonment of the old-form traditional khopesh in favour of more modern weapons. :--Sings-With-Spirits (talk) 21:38, November 5, 2012 (UTC) ::I think that may too speculative for the main article. With a quick check of Wikipedia, at khopesh, scimitar, and related precursors, it doesn't say that the scimitar evolved from the khopesh, but rather came from more machete-like weapons like the makhaira or dao. Where did you learn this about the khopesh/scimitar? ::In addition, there are other possibilities, such as introduction of the scimitar by other races (drow are suggested), or direct introduction by the god Targus/Garagos, who is described and statted with scimitars prior to 3rd edition. ::And, this being D&D, things don't exactly go out of fashion or use, but keeping sticking around if they're still cool and interesting. Mulhorand still uses khopeshes for the Egyptian theme. -- BadCatMan (talk) 12:21, November 6, 2012 (UTC) :::The khopesh, over the course of 8 centuries, evolved into the greek kopis; its lineage is clear from both a visual standpoint and a linguistic standpoint. As its use spread, numerous derivatives evolved, such as the Iberian Falcata or the Nepalese Kukri. As cavalry warfare developed, the curve of the weapon swept back, evolving into the Turkish Kilij. You have to keep in mind that in the western world, "scimitar" is effectively a catch-all name for a wide family of weapons with generally similar attributes from the Middle and Far East; all these weapons are descended from the khopesh, directly or indirectly. The same weapons developed in the West are lumped under the "saber" banner, but notice that "saber" and "scimitar" share a common linguistic base and sabers developed after Europeans were exposed to the scimitar family of swords during the Crusades. :::In the Realms, I don't put much weight on the statement regarding drow and scimitars; very few drow are actually seen with them (though, admittedly, the exceptions are quite... vociferous). I also simply cannot overlook the timing; Scimitar is introduced and less than 200 years later the khopesh becomes "unavailable", according to the availability table cited. :::Regarding Mulhorand; their khopeshes were developed on another world, so their development is parallel and wholly independent of the Netherese khopesh; the article (the part I wrote) is specific to the Netherese khopesh; the one that ceased to be produced in -2059 DR; as far as the Arcane Age is concerned, new khopeshes are unavailable after that date. :::I do recognize that the line about the khopesh "becoming" the scimitar is needlessly speculative, so I have reworded it. --Sings-With-Spirits (talk) 17:33, November 6, 2012 (UTC) ::::The kopis/khopesh connection is only listed as speculative on the Wikipedia page. The falcata is described as evolving independently to the kopis, and from sickles rather than khopeshes (though the khopesh is described as a sickle-sword itself). The scimitar/khopesh connection seems much more tenuous to me, or of a much longer scale and more indirect than is really relevant or possible in Netherese history. The evolution of swords is often very parallel, branching, and undocumented. ::::Drow? I wouldn't know, I'm playing a katana-wielding drow paladin/scout of Eilistraee. She's a chef. :D The DM forbade me from calling it a katana, so I'm calling it a meat-cleaver. :D ::::That table in the sourcebook really only suggests when things become economically available within Netheril. It's stated there that Netheril made little development in weapons and armour, and that much their weapons came from outside sources. The Netherese khopesh could well have been sold to them by Mulhorand, and the scimitar from somewhere else. ::::Still, yours is an interesting theory. You could put a note about it at the bottom, there but outside the main article. -- BadCatMan (talk) 01:04, November 7, 2012 (UTC) :::::I'll do that... in a few days (working on several projects right now). --Sings-With-Spirits (talk) 02:53, November 7, 2012 (UTC) Weight? 7 lbs are less than 3 kilograms, not 3.5 kg. The conversion factor is something like 0.41, from the top of my head, not 0.5. Half a kg is quite a lot of weight, and 3 kg is already as heavy as a two-handed steel sword of 5 feet length, so these numbers are, at best, questionable; altho I'll accept the 7lb weight as canon given a source. 01:55, November 6, 2012 (UTC) :Darkwynters checked the source and fixed the measurements and weights. For the record, the conversion factor is ~0.45. The khopesh also weighs 12 lbs in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd edition. -- BadCatMan (talk) 12:27, November 6, 2012 (UTC)